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Interview with Mike Grehan, author of Search Engine Marketing: The Essential Best Practice Guide.

Next up, we talk to Master of Search Marketing, author, and wind-up merchant Mike Grehan.

A word of warning to sensitive souls: the following interview contains references to cloaking, the Evil Darth Tegtmeier, cloaking (again), the voluptuous Jill Whalen, religious allegory and something called GodRank. Send your children to bed. Now! Deep breath. Onward...

Thanks for talking with us today, Mike. Can you tell us a little about your background?

Well, I was born at a very early age. I didn't receive much love from my parents. I figured they were trying to tell me something when they started wrapping my school lunch in a road map. And then one day, when they gave me some money to go to the movies, I came back home to find they had moved house.

It was then that I realised I had to make my own way in life and make something of myself. So, I decided to become a search engine marketer! Of course, I was only eleven at the time, so I had to wait more than 25 years to really be able to fulfil my new ambition.

To keep myself occupied while I was waiting for Tim Berners-Lee to get his finger out and invent the world wide web, I decided to go to college and do business studies. I also joined a band and became successful at two things: being the world's worst guitarist - swiftly followed by being the world's worst drummer.

Following my great success at being terrible, the owner of the club where we played, promoted me to DJ, with these immortal words: "you're absolute crap in the band, but you've got more records than anyone else, so you're the DJ now." This was it, at last, I'd made my professional break into show biz!

I tried to keep up with my studies while working nights in "pits and dives". But something had to give. I decided that working in nightclubs was exciting, but degenerative to ones lifestyle. I'd also found myself mixing with strangely exotic women (and men of a similar demeanour). It was a hard a choice but I decided I had to give it up - my studies, of course - in an effort to ease the pressure I was under.

I eventually made the tiny leap from sleazy nightclubs into local radio, where I starred on the graveyard shift as it was known. From 2.00am to 6.00am I would play records and take telephone calls from strangely exotic people who had just come home from nightclubs and were able to speak in many tongues.

I was eventually given a contract with a large regional station for a networked program. This was a very interesting and exciting period in my life. If I ever remember any of it I may write a book about it. Some time later I was approached by a regional TV station and asked to audition, which lead to freelance TV work. Later, I moved into the production side of the business.

I started my own promotions company and eventually dropped out of "on air" media work altogether. I went back to University and studied marketing like a man possessed, to make up for lost time. I worked for both advertising agencies and PR companies at one time or another. And eventually, in 1996, I left the agency I was with and formed an Internet Marketing company.

This was not my best business idea. As, at the time, there were only about 16 web sites online and no customers. Fortunately, I'm a patient chap and was happy to wait until search engines became the new online sport. After a while, I became so adept at Spamming them, I believe there was a "wanted" poster for me hanging in the reception area at Infoseek as well as others.

Very early on, I realised that being a search engine enemy was actually detrimental to all parties, mainly my own business. Whilst driving home one evening, I was forced to pull my car over to the side by a small silver craft hovering just above me. A light shone down on me and I heard a soft, low voice speaking to me, repeatedly saying a word that sounded like "gaggle" or "goggle" or something like it. And at that very moment, in a trance-like shock, my coal-black-hat turned to snowy-white.

Now, I spend my days with my clients Lotus position on small yoga mats, chanting "best practice" and burning incense. More recently, I donned a very fetching anorak and studied the work of leading figures in the industry. During this sabbatical, I placed my findings in a tome called "Search Engine Marketing: The essential best practice guide.

It's been reviewed by many, including the best selling author of a book about Origami. He told me that mine was an extremely useful book. Of the 352 pages, he made 12 new lampshades for his house, a smart new paper hat for himself and a small Donkey type animal with three legs for the children. I'm currently undertaking serious research into vector support machines and the probabilistic combination of content and links, as a solution to provide enough material for an extra leg and a tail for the small Donkey type animal.

Of course, I have my parents to thank for all of this. If they hadn't played that hilarious practical joke on me all those years ago - I may never have had my vision and completely missed the career pinnacle of my life by being in this blog.

I can understand how it must be :) Now, there's a few search engine books and about ten million web sites revealing the "secrets" of seo (laughs). What makes yours different?

Well, if I can be perfectly frank, the one thing which vastly differentiates my book from any other on the subject, is the fact that it has a picture of me and my name on the cover. There isn't another one like it as far as I know.

But really? Whether it's different or not is a very subjective matter. It touches on (as best as I could) all elements of what we now refer to as search engine marketing. As do others. But if there is a difference to be noted, it's probably more about the angle that I approached it from.

Other books that I've read are based mainly on anecdotal evidence. And let's face it Peter, you know as well as anyone else, there's lots of BS out there about search engines and how they work. I've so frequently been left disappointed when I've purchased another book on the subject and dashed to the section on "how search engines work" - only to find that it doesn't actually explain how they really work. Mostly, as I say, it's anecdotal stuff which simply skims the surface. I enjoy research and I'm very inquisitive by nature, so when someone says in a book: you have to do this - I have to ask why? I can't accept: "dunno, you just have to" as an answer because it's so frustrating.

I just thought to myself: "if no one can give the kind of answers I'm looking for, I'll go and find them myself". I've been fascinated by the whole subject of information retrieval on the web for years. And as the web grows so rapidly and the task becomes much greater, so does my interest and research in the field.

So, I started looking at search engines from a different angle. Somebody has to build them and program them. So, who are these people? What existing technologies do they use and what technologies do they develop themselves? I just figured that, if I could just get the fundamentals (not being a scientist) then I could answer my own questions. And for anyone else with a similarly fetching anorak - answer theirs too.

I started doing serious research in 1999. I didn't intend writing a book at all at that time. But as I read one scientific paper after another, the less and less difficult it became to grasp the underlying concepts. I started using a more enlightened knowledge of the inner workings of search engines and applied the whole "cause and effect" process in small experiments. Time and time again, I was able to understand why one thing works, yet another doesn't.

As the whole process of search engine optimisation became more and more sophisticated, all the more I would see documents from other search engine optimisers with revelations about what was changing with search engines, but with so much second guessing going on. So I decided to come out from under the corporate shadows and publish my own findings. I was very careful to ensure that any facts were backed up either by the research papers I'd read, or by people actually involved in the industry. I suppose because of that and because I had so much excellent support and factual input from real industry insiders, it has more reliable information than hype or anecdotal material.

As for there being "secrets" about how search engines work, it just makes me laugh when I see that on web sites. Like, Larry Page from Google rang this web site owner, and said: "here's some secret content for your web site" [bursts out laughing]. I mean, if any web site did have a search engine secret, it's only one twitch of a finger over a mouse for a search engine to tweak the algo. And that's that so called secret down the pan!

Anyway, truth be known, there's quite enough information available both in academia and within the industry to be able to discover how search engines work if you're prepared to put in the research hours. And when you're able to discuss the key concepts and technology, you can usually get to speak to the right people. I'll quote award winning author Alexis Gutzman on this. She said in a review, something like: the search engines themselves didn't give him the recipe: but they don't have any problems at all talking to him about the ingredients.

My book is also slightly different to others because I placed a life changing secret message embedded in a subliminal code. When you read the book, you'll find your whole approach to life changes. You'll feel younger and more handsome or beautiful. The opposite sex will find you irresistible and certain parts of your anatomy, either above or below the waste, will become larger. Your confidence will be at an all time high and you will win the lottery. Before you die, purely through the knowledge you gain from this book, you will also win the Nobel prize. And on your deathbed, with your last dying breath, you will be able to reveal the secret of life and everything in it to your grandchildren.

Apart from that, it's not really too different to the rest.

What responses have you had to the book?

It's just been tremendous really. Although, in all honesty, it hasn't changed me much at all. Being proclaimed as the almighty and most venerable living guru of search engines happened on the same day as I ran out of cat food. So, standing at the checkout in the supermarket with mere mortals wasn't really too hard to deal with. In fact, some of them even commented on how much I suit a flowing white robe.

There are the odd "niggling" things. Like that man Sullivan, constantly sneaking up behind me trying to touch the hem of my robe. Oh, yes, and there's the voluptuous Jill Whalen, dressed only in lingerie, always throwing herself at me. Plus, the evil Darth Tegtmeier, he's constantly on the phone inviting me to come and see him perform a small, dark-side, search engine blessing with his dastardly fantomblaster machine. But I can live with all that.

Seriously? On the one hand I've been overwhelmed by the reaction from industry professionals. On the other, I've been stunned by some childish behaviour. It's unfortunate that you get the odd one or two people in the industry who seem to be more interested in developing their online status than anything else.

It's a shame that, it sometimes makes this industry look so twee and self indulgent when SEO's begin conferring guru status upon themselves, or happily accepting it from some adoring newsletter reader or something. I mean, if anyone did deserve such a title, I guess it would have to be Danny Sullivan. Although, being the thoroughly down to earth guy that he is, he probably wouldn't wear the mantle too easily.

And the only reason I suggest that Danny may be the "chosen one" [laughs] is based on something much more important than his celebrity within the industry. It's something I mentioned to him a short while ago. During the course of my research I studied dozens and dozens of research papers written by the scientists involved in information retrieval on the web (and also spoke to many of them). Each of these papers makes reference (cites) the work of other researchers in the field and other sources of information. You'd be very surprised to see the number of times that "Sullivan" or "Search Engine Watch" get mentioned. I didn't see a single other mention of these self proclaimed search engine gurus in any serious scientific papers. Just Danny Sullivan. That's it.

When you think about it, in reality, SEO is hardly rocket science. To be perfectly honest, if you want to meet a real search engine guru, you have to get to someone like Andrei Broder (Chief Scientist at Alta Vista) who's largely recognised as one of the leading authorities in information retrieval on the web. Or Monica Henzinger (Head of research at Google) there's not a lot you can teach these guys about search engines. I'm fortunate enough to get to speak to the real experts from time-to-time and believe me: to warrant guru status, you'd have to be up there with them, working on the next generation of search.

To get back to your original question though, the industry reaction is one thing - but the reaction from people who actually buy the book is so much more important. For some it's a heavy slog: for others it's like a breath of fresh air. I get so much useful feedback from readers. They appreciate the amount of research and thank me for solving some puzzles for them. And more to the point, waste no time in correcting me if I've not been completely accurate. This is essential input for the next edition of the book.

It's certainly well researched. I note you have close ties with Northumbria University in Newcastle. Do you find that your academic associations give you a different perspective from those who exist mainly in the marketing world?

I maintain my links with the University for two very important reasons:

1 I get invited by students to lots of parties.

2 The beer in the student's bar is half price.

Okay, there are two things I try and do with the University (apart from keep myself in touch with the very latest market research). I lecture from time-to-time to both undergrads and post grads and try and take the real world experiences of marketing online and track it back to the theory being studied, to prove that there is a "rhyme and a reason". It helps to create a kind of bridge to real world practitioner strategy for the undergrads. And also provides "hands on" you can try this tomorrow advice for the post grads.

Again, there are many online marketers, as such, who never studied marketing in their life. But there they are wanging on about some great copywriter who wrote the million dollar sales letter or something. I just think a real sense of proportion is warranted on both sides, so it's kind of like trying to separate "fact from fiction" and link "theory to practice".

The other thing with the University, is the support they offer to local businesses. Many of them are just too small to be able to afford to pull in a consultant like me (not that I'm that expensive). The University has a program which brings together the massive amount of intelligence and experience they have in-house, with business support agencies, commercial organisations and funding packages to help small businesses grow…

Peter… Peter… slap, slap… helooo!… I'm going to talk about search engines again now…

Huh...whaa...(rubs eyes) Oh, right. You also mention in your book that it's often difficult to tell fact from fiction. What would be your advice for the beginner webmaster? What is the best thing they can do to promote their site?

First of all, you need to buy a copy of my book. And then buy an ad in the middle of the Super Bowl…

Okay, straight to the point with this one. This blog is focused on search engines. And search engines are a very good channel for driving traffic. However, it's easy to become too focused and forget that search engines are only one tool in your online marketing mix.

Some people make all kinds of claims about driving zillions to your web site with search engines. But the truth of the matter is, driving traffic is one thing: conversion to customers and developing business relationships is another.

I think, sometimes, the desire to achieve a top ten hit at Google, for instance, supersedes the actual goal. This is not about your rank at a search engine: but the quality of traffic you can attract to your web site by any means. So neither the quantity of traffic nor the rank you achieve are anywhere near as important as your overall business goals. 5,000 visitors and one sale - or 50 visitors and ten sales?

There are many "customer confidence" type web sites online with people telling you how they earn millions a year purely from online marketing. And if you are new to online marketing, you can get carried away by the many claims. The truth of the matter here, in so many cases, is still very closely linked to what happened during the gold rush. Sure, many people became very wealthy. But these were not the guys scraping at the ground looking for the gold: these were the guys who were selling the shovels.

I recently read an excellent new book called Web of Deception, by Anne P Mintz (thanks to Chris Sherman for that tip) it's all about misinformation on the Internet (and also includes a very credible take on how search engines really work). It's incredible when you read it and see the amount of absolute lies, nonsense and badly researched information which just abounds on the web. So it's no wonder that fact and fiction seem to "blur" together on the web.

One area which seems to suffer more from this "blur" effect is most certainly where search engines are concerned. For the novice, SEO has this kind of "mystique" and "technical voodoo" attached to it. When in reality, it's a process which anyone can learn - without having to attend the same school as Harry Potter.

Y'know, a lot of this was really well covered by Ralph Tegtmeier in your interview with him Peter. I have a massive amount of respect for Ralph. He's an extremely intelligent guy with his feet planted firmly on the ground. If you read his newsletter, what you get is the unexpurgated truth based on real experience. He doesn't give a "monkey's ****" about search engines telling you to "do this, do that, be good, yada, yada, yada…" but some people just don't like to hear him say it.

Ralph and I frequently work for clients at the larger end of the scale, so we tend to come up against the same technical barriers which larger corporations create for themselves when it comes to SEO. And like me, Ralph is very realistic about finding the most effective solutions both for his clients, the search engines and the end users.

I was fascinated by the reaction which occurred in certain forums after the interview you did with him. I have to admit, I rarely bother with forums, but when I saw a link about him causing a controversy of some kind I had to take a look. I thought maybe he'd exposed himself in public or murdered a search engine rep or something. But what was all the brew-hah-hah about? Ralph talking about the use of cloaking as an effective solution; the fact that he's developed new technology to speed up a certain process and that he takes "ethics" and search engine pontificating with a pinch of salt.

All of a sudden, he's the evil Darth Tegtmeier with a villainous plot (not that he's ever likely to lose any sleep over it). There are many, many SEO's using cloaking as a method of achieving a solution to certain technical barriers. For my book I also interviewed John Heard, another expert in the field of cloaking. And if you read the interview, you'll find that John uses this particular method for exactly the same reasons. So he's evil? No, he's one of the world's leading SEO's.

I have a project beginning with one of Europe's leading media groups. As such it's all about TV and streaming media makes up about 90% of the content. The intention is to make it a major entertainment site. At the same time, this also makes it one of the most search engine unfriendly sites you'll ever encounter. Now, I can say to the marketing director: "what we need to do is remove that Flash animation and replace it with a big, ugly, search engine friendly h1 tag. Then we'll remove the video and replace it with a nice static graphic and an alt tag. And instead of having that audio file with this week's number one hit, we'll replace it with a nice text transcript of the lyrics…"

There goes that contract.

Or what about we use cloaking? The surfer keys in the query. The search engine returns a 100% relevant result for that query. The surfer clicks through and gets a wonderful audio-visual presentation - just what he was expecting.

Why would anyone be unhappy about such a win-win situation?

What's a search engine likely to say about this? "The user is keying in a specific query. We are serving a relevant result. The surfer is happily viewing a very expensive, quality content site. Yes, we'll have to pull this one from the database…". Where's the sense in that?

As for Ralph's new product, why the shriek of horror? It's a simple as this: if, for instance, you wanted to compete in the very lucrative world of adult sites, you'd better have this kind of tool, or don't bother turning up at all. This particular arena is cut-throat and no prisoners are taken. Okay, it's seedy and not my own cup of tea. But just go to WordTracker and switch the adult filter off, or use the Overture keyword tool, you'll see the hundreds of thousands of these types of adult searches taking place on all of the search engines. With such a big audience, there's also big money. Then go to one of these sites and ask the webmaster if he'd like to be a little more ethical and stick to the search engine rule book. You'll get a reply that could only be published on an adult site. I'm afraid the adult thing online isn't going to go away in a hurry. Ralph has a seriously good technology company. And there's a demand from a certain quarter for technology which he can supply. It's what business is all about - supply and demand. And whatever market sector you target (adult or not) technology is used and very often abused. It's not so long ago I couldn't get moved online for hundreds of thousands of doorway pages. What did I do? I cranked up WebPosition Gold and knocked them out by the hundred myself so that I could compete on the same terms. I preach "best practice: but there are certain times when you simply have no alternative other than to fight fire with fire.

I get a little bemused about this whole ethical thing. SEO in its purest sense is about manipulating search engine results anyway. That's why we do it. Our optimised web pages beat the crap out of our competitors pages which are not. And we gladly accept money for this service from our clients. You know, both Jill Whalen and Ralph Tegtmeier are great friends of mine. But sometimes, we're bound to come up against each other on a professional level chasing the same key phrases. If Jill's beating me, what do I do? Give her a call and say: "Jill, be a sweet thing and throw some clutter back into that site you're optimising." Or: "Ralph, dear friend, you appear to be cloaking and you're beating me. Be a good chap and stop it."

This is marketing. And marketing is like war. It's about strategy and tactics to beat the enemy to gain the greatest market share. When I saw these people whinging in forums about what's ethical and someone suggesting that Ralph "crawled out from under a stone" it just made me wonder if they've ever had to really compete online on behalf of major clients who demand winning results. If you want to talk about ethics, then join a philanthropic society or something. And when it comes to marketing online, it's as simple as this: if you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

Sorry Peter, did I slightly deviate from the original question… :-)

Only slightly ;) One section of your book deals with themes. You don't believe current search engines use themes, at least not in the way that many seo's understand them. Can you talk a little about this?

Oh. That subject? Yes, I can say a little. Succinctly: there's no such thing as themed web sites which you have to sum up in two words for search engines! That's it. Period. Search engines do NOT return web SITES at the query interface - they return web PAGES. In fact, the entire premise of so called "themed web sites" is based on nothing more than SEO propaganda. I've not seen a single shred of scientific or technical evidence, either during my research, or in any book by other SEO's promoting this theory, which supports the idea.

When search engines use the term "theme" they are talking about classification and categorisation of web pages across the entire corpus - NOT specific web sites. And I explained in the book how an inverted index is created by search engines and how this leads to a "term weight pair" - but, again, this applies to the entire corpus NOT specific web sites.

Seriously, this is a subject which has largely been misunderstood. You've read the book, so you know it's not so easily simplified. And personally, I've been misquoted and accredited with things I haven't even said on the subject so many times, I think I'll just "pass" this time. However, I'm not alone on this. So I'll hand it over to Danny Sullivan. Here's a direct quote from Danny in part-answer to one of his newsletter reader questions from the recent edition:

"Crawler-based search engines rank pages on a page-by-page basis, not on a "site" basis. In other words, they don't try to figure out how many pages of content you have on different topics, then perhaps reward a site with lots of content on a particular topic or "theme." Instead, each of your pages will standalone on the page's particular merits."

And I'll say amen to that!

Amen indeed. When I was chatting with Ralph & Brett, a common thread emerged, which was essentially "look beyond the search engines for traffic generation". What trends do you see as being the most important areas for internet marketers over the next year or so?

I agree entirely with both Ralph and Brett about not relying wholly on search engines. As I mentioned earlier, search engines are one effective tool for driving traffic and bringing in sales, but SEM is not the online marketers panacea. Email marketing, affiliate marketing and the often forgotten offline marketing are all equally as important.

When I worked in conventional marketing there was no way I'd ever say to a client: "We've decided to spend the entire budget on PR this year. No personal selling, no advertising, no direct mail, no tradeshows, no…"

My job was to look at the best way to spread the budget over the most cost effective mix. Of course, certain aspects of the marketing mix would reap better rewards and therefore would gain more priority. However, the goal was to create as much awareness as possible by using every marketing tool available within the given budget.

Like Brett and Ralph, I don't have a crystal ball to gaze into the online marketing future. But certainly the major threat that every online marketer faces, is that of growing consumer resistance. Your average surfer has suffered the barrage of banner ads to which many have become oblivious. They've been unmercifully Spammed and now, in return, unmercifully filter out more email than they read (this happens at both server and client level). And post purchase dissonance frequently rumbles loudly on the web because of poor customer service or failure to deliver.

Surfers are more sophisticated now and demand a lot more pre selling. They need to be a lot more assured now that the novelty of shopping online has diminished. This means that online marketers will have to work a little harder on their acquisition and retention strategies for the future.

With the advent of paid inclusion, pay per click etc, do you feel the traditional SEO has been marginalized? Is SEO heading more into the realm of marketing?

I've always believed that SEO is an integral component within the online marketing mix anyway. And because search engines kind of developed the most unusual business model ever, in that they earn no revenue from their end users, it was inevitable that they would look elsewhere. So, I wasn't surprised when they turned to the SEO community. I mean, we'd had a pretty good "free ride" for a long time.

If I turn your question around just a little bit, it's not so much a case of SEO being "marginalized" because of the advent of these paid-for schemes, it's more about accountability. Whereas previously, I was paid as a consultant to do a little bit of "technical voodoo" for clients and that was it, I'm now handling online marketing budgets. And as such I'm accountable for ROI on media spend (sighs: just like the old days ;-)

You know, you can spend a lot of time optimising web pages to achieve those top ten hits. But when your competitor decides to throw ten grand at Overture and more-or-less stands on your head for your most important key phrases, then you have to start thinking about parity budgeting.

Search engine marketing is still viewed as a below-the-line spend by marketing departments and agencies. But just as I observed when offline database/relationship marketing started to show more measurable results and below-the-line spend increased as above-the-line decreased, I can see a similar shift. As I mentioned earlier, it's about ROI not rank these days.

Google pretty much dominates the search space now. Do you see any serious contenders on the horizon?

Certainly in terms of awareness and coverage Google rules. But although less visible in terms of branding, Overture is very much in the same space. I mean, if you want number one hits across the board i.e. all the majors then it's very much the Google/Overture combination.

As for another contender for Google's "King of general purpose search" title, I don't really see much competition at all. Sure, you have Teoma and Wisenut out there using really neat technology. But they have a long way to go to achieve the kind of web-wide awareness which Google has. And let's not forget, Google employs 50 PhD's in its staff. This is some mean R&D team I can tell you. So you'd have to be pretty well stacked up on both the financial and R&D side to want to go head-to-head.

I think what's most likely to happen is that we'll see a lot more speciality (or niche) engines begin to spring up. Focused crawling is still very much a "hot potato" in SE research terms. There are a number of advantages to crawling only the subset of the web which pertains to specific topics. In this way, search engines will be able to target niche audiences and user groups to provide 100% topic specific results. Lawcrawler is a good example (although, ironically it's powered by Google) and, of course, Scirus over at AllTheWeb. I think we're more likely to see these types of focused search engines appearing in the commercial sector as opposed to a series of contenders for the Google crown.

If you could build the ultimate search engine, what would it be? What would it do that current search engines don't?

Once again, ironically, Google is already working on it. This is how Larry Page describes it: "It would be the mind of God. It would know exactly what you want and give you back exactly what you need."

So we'd all best start thinking about how to improve our GodRank now!

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Phew. Thanks a lot, Mike. Riveting. And you're right - you are funny ;)

Mike's written a superb, well researched book on search engines: Search Engine Marketing.

Next week: It could be Inktomi. Or that man Sullivan.



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

 

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